Mysterons - Good or Evil?

[Clya Brown]

That goes for me too. I suspect that the relevance of both the original series and the new one to topical events isn't lost on many of the older viewers - after all, if there were no relevance then much of the interest value would be lost. I've noted in the past the similarity between the events described in "Shadow of Fear" and the Gary Powers U2 incident; the Crater 101 trilogy and the Cuban missile crisis, and I've no doubt there are others. Star Trek did this sort of thing all the time, and was highly praised for doing so. For my part, I'd cheerfully engage in a discussion about parallels with Iraq sometime, as I also hold strong views on this subject, but not on this forum. I can hardly think of a faster way to provoke a flame war than to launch into a debate on the morality of that situation, given that there could well be people dropping in here who have relatives in the armed services out there at the moment or know someone who was killed or injured in the recent London bombings.

Getting back to the subject of different viewpoints of morality, maybe one of these days I'll try to write a piece of fanfic from the point of view of one of the traditional enemies of one of the Anderson series. Not the Mysterons themselves, I think: too difficult to get into their psyche and express it in narrative terms. Sherlock Holmes once compared Watson's efforts to encapsulate his exploits in a presentable form to trying to weave a love story into one of the propositions of Euclid, I seem to remember - and then tried to write up one of his own cases in one of the later tales, discovering in the process how difficult it is to make it sound interesting when you have to leave out all the literary flourishes. However, Captain Black has his say in at least one of the stories in Chris's fanfic archive on this forum: a feasible if formidable task given that there's a human trapped inside what the Mysterons have turned him into. One of the aliens from UFO, perhaps? Boris and Griselda from Fireball XL5? Titan from Stingray? The Hood from Thunderbirds? Bearing in mind what we've been saying earlier about there being different interpretations of right and wrong, that last one would be quite a challenge, I think.

[Doc Denim]

I'd like to see a few of those proposed Fanfic's Doc B! (Start with Titan, I think that would work for you very well....)

However, to bring things back to a few of the items Shaqui brought up and that I think we can address: (And again, I'm referring to Classic Mysterons, though they may share this 'trait' in common with the New ones...)

Shaqui said:

Well admittedly the new Mysterons have, at times, been referred to by 'their own' as 'the Mysteron Consciousness'. To me, this implies a collective intelligence.

Doc Denim has previously said:

“They” in fact is a bit of a misnomer - for Mysterons don’t come as individuals - the Mysterons are a collective consciousness, multi-faceted but still one. The ‘facets’ themselves are either sectors of the original program, variations thereof, or they are life-forms that have been scanned, terminated and retrometabolized, ‘digitized’, if you like, and absorbed into the whole

Shaqui said:

(Note their own term 'beings' - individualistic and plural! Is this how 'machines' or 'computers' would refer to themselves?)

Well, I don’t know exactly how the Mysterons would refer to themselves – I assume they have a language/mode of communications of their own, but they obviously choose to use English to communicate with us. Whether they learned it listening to Earth’s radio broadcasts (as a part of their ‘study’ of us) or if they’re picking it out of Black’s brain isn’t something I’ve resolved completely, and isn’t really something I feel is critical for me to establish anyway. But this is what I’ve said about it before:

Doc Denim has previously said:

I have already mentioned that I think the Mysterons (as a digital intelligence) don’t come as individuals - So while the machine intelligence may be running separate sub-routines with different functions, they’re all hooked into the central matrix. The ‘Voice’ just for instance, would be the facet that handles communications. Which, boiling it down, means that there’s a sort of plurality involved with the Mysterons, but not necessarily a ‘we’ as humans would perceive it.

I think that's (by loose analogy) something like having different programmes on your PC's hard drive - you can run both Excel and Word, but they don't talk to each other unless you Link them....

More to discuss later....

Doc Denim

[shaqui]

I have already mentioned that I think the Mysterons (as a digital intelligence) don’t come as individuals - So while the machine intelligence may be running separate sub-routines with different functions, they’re all hooked into the central matrix. The ‘Voice’ just for instance, would be the facet that handles communications. Which, boiling it down, means that there’s a sort of plurality involved with the Mysterons, but not necessarily a ‘we’ as humans would perceive it.

I think that's (by loose analogy) something like having different programmes on your PC's hard drive - you can run both Excel and Word, but they don't talk to each other unless you Link them....

Well I don't fully subscribe to the original TV series idea that the Mysterons are computers or digital, I do find your idea of beings as 'applications' on an alien hardware an appealing concept. It redefines 'individuality' in some ways. Could it be seen as a gestalt? Could their combined existence form a greater whole than just that? Could their be a biological equivilant? (Some say insects are - individual bodies but with a unified collective instinct and intelligence)...

[Doc Denim]

Shaqui;

Just a quick note for you - have been meaning to mention this for awhile, have just not been available much recently...

Could it be seen as a gestalt? Could their combined existence form a greater whole than just that? Could there be a biological equivilant? (Some say insects are - individual bodies but with a unified collective instinct and intelligence)...

If you can track it down, C.J. Cherryh has written an excellent novel called Serpent's Reach that goes into this insect intellgence concept (and wraps it around quite a fast paced action story to boot) in some depth. You would probably like it.

Doc Denim

[Jay]

Oo..er very deep stuff.

Just a quick point, then I'd run and hide again.

Surely whether an act/actions or race is/are evil or not is entirely subjective. As humans we think the Mysterons are over reacting to what was a mistake but think about it from the other side for a moment.

It really doesn't matter if the Mysterons are man, machine or lovely green mist, the Zero-X mission destroyed them without warning, Captain Black didn't know they could retrometabilise, yet he still fired on them intending to destroy them. To all intents and purposes, humans destroyed the Mysterons like crushing a bug underfoot. We are only reaping the whirlwind cos the Mysterons have special powers we knew nothing about, if they hadn't we would have totally destroyed them on little more than whim.

Now who is the victim and who is the villian?

[Prismatic Avatar]

It really doesn't matter if the Mysterons are man, machine or lovely green mist, the Zero-X mission destroyed them without warning, Captain Black didn't know they could retrometabilise, yet he still fired on them intending to destroy them. To all intents and purposes, humans destroyed the Mysterons like crushing a bug underfoot. We are only reaping the whirlwind cos the Mysterons have special powers we knew nothing about, if they hadn't we would have totally destroyed them on little more than whim.

Now who is the victim and who is the villian?

Drat! This was running through my head as I was reading this thread and I have been thwarted!

What Jay says is true. The question of retrometabolism is irrelevant, as is the idea that the Mysterons are over-reacting. If the Mysteron presence on Mars is the sole representation of their race, then Humanity, through its agents in Zero X committed genocide when they destroyed the city. And I mean genocide. Not the glib use of it that rolls off the media's tongue at a drop of a hat. I mean the total and complete eradication of an entire species.

The Mysterons are retaliating like for like. Even today, there are societies that demand the death of an individual guilty of murder. This is considered equitable and just. It could be argued that the Mysterons are simply applying a justice system that we already have in place.

"The Humans believe that somebody guilty of murder must in turn be killed. Humanity is guilty of murder. Therefore Humanity must die."

That doesn't have to be machine logic. It can be emotive logic, as well. And the argument that Humans are all indivuduals and can't be held responsible en masse is simply a Human attitude. Collective responsibility could very well be the norm for an alien race. It would certainly lead to individuals being a hell of a lot more responsible in their actions!

As for the retrometabolism question, I used this argument in one of my stories, putting the words in Ochre's mouth: If a person tries to kill another person and succeeds, only to have the victim be resuscitated, does that mean that the person who tried to kill them should be let off with a slap on the wrist? The intent was there. The act was there. The outcome was there. Only chance changed that outcome.

And what's with the bit about the Mysterons being cruel? In what way? They kill people, yes, but they kill people who will be tools for further destruction using human resources. They didn't create the biochemical weapon, the missiles, the nuclear devices. (I can think of one exception to that rule, unfortunately, but I'll take the cowardly way out and hope no-one else spots it! ) They are using things we have already created against us. Plus I have no proof that any of the agents they chose were family men. I could probably argue that they were bachelors. The Mysterons never targeted children, either, although children would have died in any ensuing catastrophe. (Having said that, of course, would their concept of children be the same as ours?)

The War of Nerves is actually a blessing, as they give us the chance to counter their moves. If we do so, they back off. Yes, their ultimate goal is the destruction of all life on Earth, but I have my own ideas about that, as well. And they give us the chance to fight back, in that they level the playing field in our favour. Come on, these guys can create indestructible constructs, teleport objects, transmute matter and return from the dead. If they had wanted, we would have been toast 30 seconds after they regenerated on Mars. I think they are punishing us for what we might have done and giving us a good long look into the abyss. For once, Mankind is having to cope with the consequences of its actions and, as always, we're trying to wriggle out of it.

[Serena Lewis]

Think about it; The Mysterons had been living on Mars for centuries, casually watching the inhabitants of Earth without making any attempt to destroy or harm them in any way. It's obvious that they had it in their power to destroy us; they just didn't, because they saw no reason to.
When the Mars mission was launched and humans discovered the Mysterons, there was no evidence that they (The Mysterons) were actually going to shoot the people. They could have been scanning etc. just as curious as the humans were.
It's quite like Cowboys and Indians. The Indians were no threat to us until we tried to take their land.
The War of Nerves was only launched because of a human's foolish, quick reponse to a piece of machinery turning to face the Exploration Vehicle.
I don't think the Mysterons are evil. On the contrary, I think the Mysterons could be more civilised than us; after all, it was earth who fired first...

Edit: Reading this back, I do still agree with myself pretty much. But, Chris, I agree with you too! It was a small group of individuals who fired, the whole planet Earth shouldn't be condemned for there actions...

Serena xx

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'...the bike that Adam took a dsilike to...'

[chrisbishop]

I do not say that what Captain Black did was right - we all agree it was very wrong, foolish, and inconsiderate, and that he acted out of panic. Perhaps the fault here was to have named that man as commander of the Zero-X mission, although, normally Black was considered in the past as a pacifist... or at least, someone wanting peace on Earth. He probably cracked under pressure.

To the point:

I do not think it is RIGHT to condemn an entire race - or in the case here, an entire planet - over the action of one individual or a reduced group of individuals. In my own opinion, this is extremist thoughts and extreme actions were taken. Even if you consider that the action made by that group of individuals is akin to destroy an entire alien race (and here, maybe the jury is still out).

But perhaps this is only a Human concept that the Mysterons do not understand. And in that, that failure of understand what is different from them do not make them more intelligent, or less guilty than us.

Actually, failure to understand would be them guilty of the same sin as Humanity.

Chris

P.S. If they have observed us from afar all those years, they probably already know a lot about us even before the Big Encounter. Wouldn't they have realised by then what could have happened?

[Race_]

Posted: 27 Feb 2007 10:05 pm

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Anyone can see and hear that the Mysterons are evil, duh.
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Spectrum is kickin' some bad guy butt
Race_

[Marion_]

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:04 am

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There's actually been a lot of discussion on the forum, over time, about WHY the Mysterons act as they do - especially in the original series. The fact that they give warnings about their targets and Spectrum does at least have a chance to 'save the World', suggests they might have other intentions rather than the complete annihilation of life on earth. After all, they ought to be able to wipe us out without trying very hard - if they really wanted to. This has led to speculation that they're using humans as 'lab rats' to see how we cope under pressure....
In NCS they seem to be a lot more aggressive. There are no warnings, for a start, and in NCS they definitely fired first on Mars, which was not the case in the original show, a fact in itself that created doubt about their motivation.
But, on the whole, I tend to think they're not very nice and definitely NOT to be trusted...
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"You know, I've always wanted to fly a plane, ever since I can remember..."
Marion_

[RabidKukaburra]

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:44 am

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I've always been of the opinion that, thanks to the unprovoked attack on their complex, the Mysterons are convinced that *we're* evil, and honestly believed they were doing the universe a favor by eliminating a savage, bloodthirsty species that goes around blowing up cities for no reason. And since they're so "peaceful" and "compassionate", hey, they'll giving a good sporting chance to save ourselves nonetheless.

On the other hand, the Mysterons did overreact to the destruction of their city just a teeeny bit, especially since they could just retrometabolize it back to just like new.

Finally, there's the rather obvious fact that the Mysterons are aliens , so who knows why they do anything?
RabidKukaburra

[DocBrown]

Sure they're evil - by our standards. I wonder however if they would have been considered evil by some of our ancestors. Take the treatment of towns and cities which resisted a seige by Ghenghis Khan's Mongols. If the townspeople surrendered at once they'd be allowed to continue life pretty much as they had before, and run their own affairs inasmuch as that was possible under new rulers. If on the other hand they resisted, and the seige was broken, then all of its citizens - men, women and children - would be butchered en masse and the city itself burned to the ground. The intention of the Mongols was obvious: to prevent unnecessary bloodshed by forging a reputation for themselves so terrifyingly blood-curdling that nobody in their right minds would contemplate resisting them - with the intentional consequence that many thousands of lives were saved, albeit at the price of submission to the empire. So is that evil or not? We'd probably condemn them as war criminals by our standards (if we were ever placed in a position to judge them, of course). The Mongols themselves would probably claim if you asked them that they were simply being pragmatic - after all, it's far better to have people living within your sphere of influence working for you than dead, provided they're no threat to your own security.

Now then, suppose the Mysterons had a similar reputation among the races scattered throughout the universe who had encountered them, leading to the widely-held understanding that if the Mysterons move into the house next door then they won't give you any trouble if you leave them alone - but God help you if you don't. If so, then Captain Black's real mistake would have been simply that he'd never heard of them - because if he had, he'd never have been so stupid as to launch the attack in the first place.

It's rather like the situation that resulted in the Earth being demolished in the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy: as the Vogon captain said just before he activated the demolition beams, the hyperspace by-pass plans had been on display in Alpha Centauri for the last 50 years, so if Mankind couldn't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs then it's his own own look-out. This sort of problem is rooted in ignorance on both sides, and it's one of the most difficult to resolve once the initial mistake has been made (as Trillion's white mice would probably agree).
DocBrown

[Marion]

Quite agree, Doc. The Mysterons are right - we're not nice either and are even less trustworthy - but then we are descended from Golgafrincham's telephone sanitisers, marketing executives, TV producers and hairdressers, wasn't it?

[gojohnniegogo]

If they have observed us from afar all those years, they probably already know a lot about us even before the Big Encounter. Wouldn't they have realised by then what could have happened?

Beat me to it, thats what I was thinking as I was reading through. I dont think they are either good nor evil par se, but nuteral. It may sound ridiculous, but how could they either persue an argument each way? If they believe humankind is responsible for the destruction of their city, then fair dos. But! If as has been said they have watched earth for 'X' period of time, they must have watched earth and the people in it and anticipated what they would do when they encountered their city....

[Kambei]

I think that Douglas Adams sums up the Humans/Mysterons debate very nicely with his comment about the Dolphins from the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy series:

It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars and so on -- whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man -- for precisely the same reasons.

A beautiful summation about Mankind's hubris that it is at the centre of all things and therefore most important.