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I do think NCS is an excellent balance and while I am unaware of the target age of MOM, I think that ages 8 and up would be fine with NCS. We have people dying in every episode - point blank shot, falling off cliff, crushed and so on and this level of horror will leave an impression with kids and that is how they become fans!!
i like the idea that the series can also be viewed by teens and adults and not thought to be childish - something that OCS and Thunderbirds probably accomplished despite being puppets (at least in the UK).
KP
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shadokp
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Just have to throw my few cents worth in on this, I just need to organize these thoughts and blather for a minute or so - actually I'm finding it rather alarming that so many seem to feel that some out and out graphic violence and gore is necessary to provide an exciting plot and premise. I've always tried to keep the bloodshed to a minimum in my own CS (and other) fanfic and as far as CS goes, the Mysterons I prefer to write about are quite civilized and restrained in their wrong-doing. (I am not going to say 'evil' - evil is a human concept and I very much dislike applying it to alien beings.)
However, as regards the on-screen visuals or lack thereof: I think the successful presentation of any graphic scenes in TV or movies depends largely on the context in which they're offered up - i.e. - is the visual segment in question there as a meaningful bit of the plot or is it there only to provide little more than visceral shock value? Just for example, I will mention the movie Braveheart, which certainly has some rather graphic scenes in it, but which are there more as a gritty and realistic backdrop to the storyline as opposed to being the main purpose of it - as, say, in the plotline of a movie like Texas Chainsaw Massacre. But I wouldn't call either of those fare for youngsters.
As regards cartoon/animated violence, I think you can make similar comparisons - let's pick Wile E Coyote and the Roadrunner vs. Itchy and Scratchy.
Wile E. was always out to get the Roadrunner, in the most complex and ridiculously amusing but always intersting sorts of ways. Wile E. always managed to be smacked up, dropped over the cliff, otherwise flattened and sometimes burned to a blackened crisp, but he always walked away and there was certainly never any blood to be found. Even his motives couldn't be called 'evil' - he was just a hungry predator looking for a bit of lunch. I think even little kids instinctively understand the food chain, and as a kid I certainly never held it against Wile E..
Itchy and Scratchy on the other hand has no innocent motive - the point to I & S is to be deliberately, psychotically and graphically violent for the "fun" of it, and I think that's a dreadful message to send out to young people - watching even cartoon characters sliced, diced, incinerated and dismembered for the amusement in it truly went (and still goes) right against my parental instincts; we went through quite a lengthy period of "No Simpsons" at our house until my kids were old enough that I could make them realize how truly appalling those segments were and why they too should disapporve of them. (Yes, I know the Simpsons is satire and parody, but I know what those concepts are - my 7 and under crowd certainly didn't....)
And since Johnny Quest has been mentioned - one of my all-time faves as well - I will say that I loved it for its sense of adventure - it's been at least 30 years since I've seen it, but I don't remember anything in it other than 'threat of violence' to the main characters. I remember lots of chase scenes, and some explosions and many narrow escapes - and especially one ravenous blob of cohesive energy stomping though the jungle chasing light bulbs - but I don't remember any 'violence' per se and again, certainly no bloodshed.
My point, I suppose, is that I like a lot of Action/Adventure - which generally includes danger and threat of terrible and scary things - otherwise where is the drama and the thrill ? - but I don't need as-an-absolute-requirement buckets of blood and gore to 'enhance' a storyline - I can find all sorts of hair-raising thrills to entertain me without going to any of those places....
off the maternal soapbox now....
Siobhan
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Doc Denim
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Doc Denim wrote:...actually I'm finding it rather alarming that so many seem to feel that some out and out graphic violence and gore is necessary to provide an exciting plot and premise.
Exactly where on this thread have you come to that conclusion? I haven't seen any sign of that here - most seem to agree about steering away from gore (myself included), and violent death has always been a part of the original series. In fact, this was the reason cited for the series being effectively shelved and remaining unrepeated in the UK throughout most of the 70s and 80s, unlike the other Anderson series.
I would agree violence and death just for its own sake should not play a part in the series, but this is a TV show, not a fan novel, and spectacular visuals are required - why bother with the medium otherwise? Both the original and new series excelled in breath taking sequences, in concept and look, and the latter is remarkably restrained in comparison while retaining the edge of an exciting series. Compare that to shots of bloodied bodies in the original...
Doc Denim wrote:...the Mysterons I prefer to write about are quite civilized and restrained in their wrong-doing. (I am not going to say 'evil' - evil is a human concept and I very much dislike applying it to alien beings.
Worthy of a thread itself I'd say, Doc...
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shaqui
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With that said, I think series need these shocks to leave an impact at times. While I didn't grow up with the original Captain Scarlet, when describing the show to people I will often comment on the realism and describe the scene when Scarlet shoots the Mysteron agent at the garage. That and when Scarlet is shot by Blue are what helps make the series excellent.
I can see young kids of 4 -5 watching an old woman get Mysteronized and then later killed in "A Trap Fro A Rhino" and being upset but I think kids are very good at noting the differences between animation and live action and perhaps to a lesser extent fact and fiction.
I seem to be arguing both sides here and so I will stop before I confuse myself further.
Bottom line, if I had a 5 year old kid, would I let him watch NCS. Yes, but as long as I was there to explain things to him and make sure he or she had the education to know what was right and wrong etc.
KP
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shadokp
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Doc Denim wrote:all;
actually I'm finding it rather alarming that so many seem to feel that some out and out graphic violence and gore is necessary to provide an exciting plot and premise.
Siobhan
I hope I didn't give the wrong impression when I started this thread.
All I really meant to point out was that the falling-off-something-very-high plot device seemed to be a recurring theme. I was merely asking whether any future episodes used some other method to bring a stop to a Mysteron agent's plans, rather than demanding a blood-fest.
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steviep
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Aegis wrote:Well, it's worth pointing out that the DVDs are "uncut" - Granada/ITV made a few cuts here and there to ensure the show was suitable for the audience/timeslot it was broadcast in - some more noticable than others. The DVDs will be the "real deal" - New Captain Scarlet as Gerry intended it to be seen.
It'll be interesting to see how many differences you notice
As a matter of interest, Aegis - were there any scenes which might have been more violent or bloody or just considered 'unsuitable', but which (presumably) were toned down before any real work was done on them?
It's interesting to think that, just over 40 years ago, a children's puppet series called 'Sara & Hoppity' caused a ruckus when objections were raised by the TV station who financially backed it:
http://homepages.tesco.net/~space.patro ... IsFour.htm
- the arguments there seem chicken feed compared to any that could have been raised for either version of 'Captain Scarlet'...
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shaqui
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there is a level of violence that seemed to be excised of late.
And
point blank shot, falling off cliff, crushed and so on and this level of horror will leave an impression with kids and that is how they become fans!!
The key phrases that struck me were: ‘excised of late’, ‘level of horror’ and ‘that is how they become fans’.
Unless I have mis-interpreted these to mean that the horror is lamentably absent (and if I have then I will quickly cease to be alarmed) all I can say is that I’m not and never will be a fan of horror and any high level of it won’t serve to turn me into one.
So – my apologies if I read this out of context….
Doc Denim
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Doc Denim
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- but I don't need as-an-absolute-requirement buckets of blood and gore to 'enhance' a storyline - I can find all sorts of hair-raising thrills to entertain me without going to any of those places....
Well that's good, we're all in agreement then.
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Chris C
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I agree that they don't have to show on screen deaths and for the most part NCS has handled this well. I do think that the scene in "Skin Deep" may have gone to far with realism but I don't want to see a series lose its impact by making the threats and evil in the stories less realistic.
Where do you draw the line? Remove the shooting and cliff falls. Now remove any crashes and scenes where people are getting hit. Now remove Captain Black's sinister face and make him smile. Okay, so now a five year old can watch without being scared once - you now have the Spectrum Teletubbies.
Sorry - I rarely hop on soap boxes but I figured I would bring up a few things here. I agree though that if this series was aimed at younger kids then perhaps it is a bit too violent but then I say, the audience should be teens and up. This gets back to the fact that ITV put NCS in the wrong time spot and is perhaps targeting the wrong audience.
KP
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shadokp
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In my opinion, the CGI series is not - any more than the original was - really suitable for little kids - although I suppose the producers were hoping that age group would be the main consumers for the merchandise.
By placing it in MoM - CITV have really scuppered the whole series most effectively. Even the partial repeat showings were in the middle of childrens broadcasting times. I do think it deserved better than that.
Most of the Anderson shows that I am familiar with had an element of more adult 'humour' or themes running through them - it was what made them (for me) that little bit special - they didn't talk down to their audiences, of any age. New CGI:CS is much the same and I don't object to the way the stories are told/portrayed.
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Marion
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shadokp wrote: I agree though that if this series was aimed at younger kids then perhaps it is a bit too violent but then I say, the audience should be teens and up. This gets back to the fact that ITV put NCS in the wrong time spot and is perhaps targeting the wrong audience.
I think this should be up to the parents. My younger sister has been watching Blackadder since she was about 8, as have myself and brother, when we were young. The reason my parents allowed this is simple - children tend to be too innocent to understand the rude, adult jokes, so they laugh at the ones they can appreciate and the amusing scenes. I started watching the show again recently, and I was shocked at what it was like - I didn't remember that side of it, at all!
I think what I'm trying to say is this: if young kids watch a show with their parents, they get from it the parts that their parents draw attention to. They will also learn from their parents reactions. I remember watching original CS with my mother, as a young child. I'm sure you'll all remember the scene with a security guard being strangled in 'The Place of Angels'. I also remember her response - it was classic! She turned to me and said, with obvious disapproval, "Well! And this is a childrens' programme!"
Had my mother reacted as if violence was funny, she might have ended up with rather different kids, but who can tell?
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Scarlet Lady
NCS is a visually stunning show, and the 'horror' and 'violence' are all part of what makes it so good. It would have been better not to have aired it in the current time slot, and this is based partly on what we have seen in just the first series!! Since by all accounts the second series has had the pace upped a notch or two, I'm wondering what is still to come!!
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Chris C
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Do any of you heere watch a show called house or CSI?
Well House is about a docotr who specialises in rare dieasis and CSI is about forensic investiators.
Ever herd of E.R. or Law & Order?
E.R is about a paramedics and doctors at a chigargo hospital nad Law & Order is about Police and prosictors fighting to maintain peace on the streets of N.Y.
Both E.R and House are both hospital drams but House shows the doctor (called Gregory House) always saving the pationts (which doesnt happen in real life) whilst in E.R most Pationts died (which happens in real life)
In CSI the team always find the murdered who confesses. Law & Order the bad guys usulay get of becuase arrests and search warents or evidence were obtained illegaly.
Now I like ER and Law & Order more thean House and CSI becuse there realsitc and grity.
I like both Thunderbirds and Captain Sacarlet but I like Scarlet more becuase Spectrem dosent always win, unlike International Rescue. My point being is that kids today grow up in a time of terrorsm and disasters and they need to know that the world isnt Black and White its shades of grey. Thats why I think NCS is important to kids to show that this world isnt perfect, its flawed.
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DanDud88
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In the classic series, the Mysterons would win some of the battles. In the new one, I think they are yet to win one...
So...
If we follow the logic behind your theory, that means that the classic series was better than the new one?
It's not an affirmation, that... just wondering...
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