A tragedy in Super Marionation
Moderator: Spectrum Strike Force
I cant count the classic films that are adored by generations which dont have foul language and graphic sexual content or violence for the sake of shock. If a story is strong, and the characters, real, CGI, or marionettes, are interesting and lovable, then the movie will be a success.
I dont know about sequels or anything, I cant claim Im that smart, just a simple girl that knows what she likes, but I do hope they make a TB movie with the origional marionettes and props. That would be fun to see and Im sure would prompt a CS movie in the same manner. At the same time, Im afraid of that seeing how they butchered Battlestar Galactica and some of my other favorites from TV Land.
Poetry Angel
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Poetry Angel
Thunderbirds movie - I liked it for itself but it was way off in comparison to the series. Talk about trying too hard to appeal to kids.
Agentbooth
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Agentbooth
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Poetry Angel said:
Well, I still liked the movie for what it was. A clean cut, wholesome entertaining show that didnt need foul language, sexual innuendo, or gratuitous violence to get a full theater.
You saw the Thunderbirds movie in a full cinema? Crikey.
I saw it in the West End of London, soon after its release, with my daughter and select group of 'Anderson-addict' friends. Apart from about 6 other people we had the place to ourselves....
I don't think it was 'good box office' generally - although my daughter did go and see it twice - once with her school friends -(there is no accounting for teenage girls and the hormonal appeal of dashing young men, it seems. Besides, she liked 'Busted' - I think that's the name of the group who did the song at the end? )
Seriously, I think that changing it so drastically from the TV show format alienated a lot of 'general' viewers - who remember the rescue based shows from the original TV (and the re-runs). The reaction to 'Thunderbirds' when the show was aired again by the BBC in the 1990s was phenominal - never mind the fact that you could see the strings, or the technology was made from empty washing up bottles - it held its audience because it was brilliant, unusual and made with great skill and attention to details. So was the classic CS, of course - and that (IMHO) is the best there is.
It also seems to be the case that Alan Tracy is the character people either love or hate - (personally, I fall in the 'leave Alan behind on TB5 forever' camp) and so concentrating on the teenage Alan wasn't going to please everyone.
Mind you it did confirm that he doesn't actually mature much from then until the events in the TV episodes
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Marion
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I seem to remember reading of a tale fairly recently about Gerry Anderson signing books in the States, and being told afterwards in reverent tones that Trey Parker had been one of those in the queue seeking his autograph (to which he replied "Who?"). Perhaps somebody can provide a reference to that anecdote - I'd love to know where I read it. (In fact, coming to think of it, I know: Gerry told us himself at the recent Fanderson convention!)
I've been trying to remember where I heard this story, and I think Gerry must have mentioned it in the Radio 5 interview he did. Did you listen to it Doc?
We saw the Thunderbirds movie in a very empty cinema as well, my main memory of it is coming out thinking what a waste of £25, and I didn't go in expecting that much. My 8 year old enjoyed it though.
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Chris C
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In which theatre did you watch Thunderbirds the Movie, Poetry Angel? The one in which I saw it was almost empty - and to me that spoke volumes about how entertaining it was perceived to be by the public at large, regardless of how clean cut and wholesome it may have been.
I do feel it's very important not to try to compare Thunderbirds the Movie and Team America in any sense. As has already been noted, Team America is not a kids' movie: it's an adult movie that's likely to appeal to the people that the original young fans of Thunderbirds grew up into - and as such I thought it was a hoot. I accept that all the sex and foul language were part of the humour package: apart from anything else, it's reminding us that our childhood puppet heroes, if they were actually portrayed as real people, might well have had seamier sides.
My objection to the swearing is a personal one: I feel that too much of it only serves to debase the English language. I can enjoy a good laugh at it - and I did in Four Weddings and a Funeral - but too much of it becomes tedious, and when I hear it used completely gratuitiously in the street I find it just plain unpleasant. (Also, if all the rude words available are already common currency, how do you express yourself when you really want to let off steam?)
Oh, and I'd love to see another TB movie with the original marionettes and props too, but as StevieP quite rightly observed on the previous page, it ain't gonna happen. Those days are past, and we've moved on. It's a shame, I know - but that's the way it is. Oh well.
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Clya Brown
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You say we've moved on Doc, but I don't suppose anyone expected something like Team America to be made so recently and to be so popular. I'd hate to think every new kids' programme wouold be created in a CGI/cartoon format, it would become very dull after a while. So many things go round full circle these days, I wouldn't be surprised if someone decided it would be a great idea some time in the future to ressurect an 'old' idea and produce a new movie using new super-animated puppets. It'd be a challenge for someone!! After all, the faces on the Team America puppets were vastly superior to the original Thunderbirds' puppets (in my opinion)!!
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Chris C
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Clya Brown
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Chris C wrote:You say we've moved on Doc, but I don't suppose anyone expected something like Team America to be made so recently and to be so popular. I'd hate to think every new kids' programme wouold be created in a CGI/cartoon format, it would become very dull after a while. So many things go round full circle these days, I wouldn't be surprised if someone decided it would be a great idea some time in the future to ressurect an 'old' idea and produce a new movie using new super-animated puppets. It'd be a challenge for someone!! After all, the faces on the Team America puppets were vastly superior to the original Thunderbirds' puppets (in my opinion)!!
DocBrown wrote:Agreed, Chris: I thought they were better too - and that was part of the reason I suggested on the previous page that if there ever was going to be a remake of the original Thunderbirds, it might just conceivably come from the Team America stable. After all, they've effectively resurrected the genre hook, line and sinker: it's just that they've chosen to do it for an adult audience as opposed to the original one. But what's to stop them from changing their target audience? StevieP commented that it's not their bag, but bags can be recycled. See also my earlier comment about the enduring appeal of Wallace & Gromit: if everything's being done in CGI, I'd say there's a role for something a little different occasionally. Why not this?
As I said before, GA used puppets because it was the only option open to him at the time. We got to OCS and Joe 90 because he was striving to make the puppets more realistic, although the crew now admit that some of the soul was lost along with the exaggerated features and funny walks. A return to the previous character types with Terrahawks and even Space Police (to an extent) was less successful the second time around.
I think that the diference with TA (and W&G) is that these are comedies. The puppets in TA deliberately look and act(!) that way. Would you really want to go back to the way things were? I think that the reason NCS works is that the characters can do all the things normal people can do, without the aid of hovercars and moving walkways. Stories can be more dynamic and the characters more believable.
While I have fond memories of the 60s shows and the discs get frequent viewings in our household, I also look forward to what the future holds.
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steviep
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I think that the diference with TA (and W&G) is that these are comedies. The puppets in TA deliberately look and act(!) that way. Would you really want to go back to the way things were? I think that the reason NCS works is that the characters can do all the things normal people can do, without the aid of hovercars and moving walkways. Stories can be more dynamic and the characters more believable.
I don't think it is a question of going back to how things were. The puppets used in TA were better, and the techniques and effects used were better too, even though they were trying to make them look tacky. I wouldn't have wanted to see Captain Scarlet remade using puppets, I think it is much more dynamic and exciting in CGI. But Thunderbirds always involved more action anyway, and I think it could turn out quite nicely incorporating newer techniques/advances in puppetry. I think Stingray could too. I can't imagine either of them in a CGI format.
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Chris C
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On the subject of the characters being more believable, though, I'm not totally sure I want them to be more believable. Speaking personally, I find that the better the representation of real human beings the characters are, the less tolerant I become of their deficiencies. I watch the interplay between the NCS Scarlet and Destiny, and I say to myself "But that's ridiculous - there's no way they'd act like that in such a situation! Not if they're the sort of people we're expected to believe they are". But had they been puppets, I'd probably have overlooked the same absurdity - and I think that's because I know they're not real. As another example, I'm quite prepared to accept The Hood in the original Thunderbirds as a credible villain. But I'm certainly not prepared to accept a real actor in such a role in the live-action movie - because absolutely nobody really behaves like that.
Ah, Stingray! Funnily enough, I don't agree on that one. Let me see if I can find one of my own postings from a while back... ah - got it!
One that I really could see working would be Stingray. The potentially spectacular underwater settings would be a first-rate challenge to a CGI production team, you'd pick up a new young female audience from the romance of the Marina saga, and the young male audience would still be there on account of the action and technology. You've also got the potential for video games: pilot your own futuristic submarine; blow up enormous ugly mechanical fish; rescue the beautiful mermaid from the clutches of a vicious underwater tyrant... I know I'd buy it!
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Clya Brown
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We got to OCS and Joe 90 because he (Gerry Anderson) was striving to make the puppets more realistic, although the crew now admit that some of the soul was lost along with the exaggerated features and funny walks.
Personally, I don't think any 'soul' was lost when the puppets became more realistic. But then, I never thought the earlier puppets were 'odd' anyway - that was just the way they were.
I loved 'Stingray' and 'Thunderbirds' - spent whole summers dashing round the countryside on my green bike, playing at being International Rescue - but I accepted the new-look puppets when they arrived.
Not having a TV at home, I only caught the odd episodes, but I read TV21 and saw the merchandise, and I thought the CS puppets were fantastic.
Maybe the series progression grew up at the same time and rate as I did? But I never thought it odd that I could adore the Tracys and the Spectrum officers at the same time.
Now, I think I would hate an anatomically correct CGI Thunderbirds series - even more than I dislike the special effects driven CS:CGI (There I have said it. )
Each to his own - as long as I have my memories of the originals - I can tolerate 'new imaginings' - but I don't have to welcome them.
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Marion
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pilot your own futuristic submarine; blow up enormous ugly mechanical fish; rescue the beautiful mermaid from the clutches of a vicious underwater tyrant... I know I'd buy it!
I think this just about sums up the problem I have with a CGI Stingray. How many times can you blow up the fish and rescue the mermaid? Captain Scarlet works because there is such a vast amount of material you can use for stories about a war with an alien race. How far could you take Stingray? I remember watching Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, every week you got a new giant fish or bit of angry seaweed to battle. Maybe it's just me but I'm struggling here to think how you could keep a series of Stingray running. There is so much packed into a single episode of NCS you only have to blink and you've missed something, but every episode is still very unique.
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Chris C
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There are stories if one looks hard enough. The ocean is kind of like space, but closer. Anything you can imagine in space, you can do under water, it just takes more imagination. Instead of airplanes flying around shooting bad guys, you have minisubs swimming around doing it.
Poetry Angel
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Poetry Angel
To me, Scarlet is the one that's potentially short of plotlines - which results in this seemingly endless array of amazing capabilities that the Mysterons have acquired during the course of the CGI series, which you need to invent enough new plots to fill all the episodes. I liked the establishment of a long-standing relationship between Black and Destiny prior to the first episode to add a bit of spice to the Destiny-Scarlet romance that subsequently blossoms, but that's never really been developed to the extent that I feel it could have been. The best scripts - to me anyway - are the ones that explore human dilemmas, especially ones that originate in sexual conflicts - not the ones that dazzle with special effects. Maybe that's why such conflicts are more prevalent in fanfic than in the actual television series: they fill in the gaps. You can't really explore human relationships in the original series because such relationships develop over time - and you can't do that in a series of one-off episodes, not all of which might actually be seen by the viewers, or which could end up being shown in a different order.
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Clya Brown
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The best scripts - to me anyway - are the ones that explore human dilemmas, especially ones that originate in sexual conflicts - not the ones that dazzle with special effects.
Couldn't agree more! But I do accept that this may be attitude of 'forty-somethings' rather than four to ten year olds - who probably think grown-ups kissing is silly....
Maybe exploring the human dilema of Scarlet's situation is something best left to fan fiction - where it can be done proper justice (we would hope) and leave the TV shows to the car chases and rocket explosions - although, from a personal angle, I find that incredibly boring and formulaic.
Captain Scarlet : the Soap opera, would probably never make it off the drawing board!
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Marion
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